.

[Jackless]

.

[Reaper]

Hey jackless im actually feeling sorry for you the way you see it.
its not true that all members only are here to become members.

and yes perhaps some admins arent allways there, but if all admins allways was there, then there was no need for new admins. and i bet that everyone on the admin team has a life besides 1.6 or css
and at one point everyone kinda needs a break away from a spicefic game, in my opinion, otherwise it gets boring
i have not been that active lately, but thats because of my personal life and work, and sometimes i actually think that it sucks, because i like to play on the breakfloor server.
but at the same time people are allways welcome to contact me over steam to get help, as i cant be on the server 24/7
so no i dont think you are right in anyway about the admins or the members.

and about doggie, i cant say anything about as i dont know anything else about him than you

Your's sincerely
Reaper

[Whiskey]

I know how you feel jackless, but if you read this news/my-letter-to-you-t751.html you will begin to see doggie's point of view. I know we got many inactive admins. Thats why new ones come in.


It's true some members join the D-E community for admin, but they usally don't procced very much.

The community has gotten pretty DEAD, you can do something about it. Make new threads etc. But most of the ideas are used.

People got thing's in their private life's, and if that means getting inactive for a while in cs 1.6 (css) you sure do it.

But i hope you can see whats going on here, and doggie promised us. He will be back in a while, and then he will keep it!

Your dear Whiskey

[seke3]

I'm not that active either, cuz i am helping my father with an apartment building he bought half a year ago. I am there almost every day and renovating. Jackless, Doggie is studying really much and on he's sparetime ( which isnt that much time) he hang out with friends and watch he's community. Isn't that good enough, you should keep your mouth closed. It hurts he's feelings when you say the message this way and i do really love this community. I want it to stay and I want the servers! I would love to have the deathmatch server back though. You are wrong in almost every way. We dont join this community just to become an admin. Last year the servers were full all the time, now they're not, we know. cs is becoming less popular, and these maps is rare. deathmatch, gg and de_ maps is 10 times more popular.
I dont want to be rude but I want to say that i think Doggie is doing a great job and I want him to stay. we are going to have a fight night soon and if you want to join you are welcome. By the way, he is a baws!

[N3bulouz]

I have to agree with Jackless here. Most of the new members on the forums are just spamming to get their post count up, and then hoping to become admin on one of the servers.
And still, not a **** thing has changed since you wrote that letter. It is clear that you don't give a **** about someone else's opinion, not even an admin's opinion.

Screw you, I ain't coming back this time.

[Jackless]

@Whiskey and @Reaper
Im on this community for like 2 years now? i think that's long enough to quote it with reason.
And to make that clear again: Jackless = Anterro = Scoarden

Again yours sincerely ,
Surranden, Anterro, Scoarden, Jackless

[KickFoot]

Alright, I'll go through some of the points in your thread.

So guys...
I watched this community for a while now (also the servers).
To the Members:
1. I don't want to go specific on names, but most of you come only here, to become admin and you don't really care about the community, that's only a way for you to become admin. I hardly ever come on the CSS server.
2. The way you think your decisions make a difference here, forget it...

There's nothing wrong in joining only to become admin (at first), that's the reason you joined, and that's the reason I joined. I, however, chose to stay for the community and has been here for, well, longer than most.
As for what you said about decisions, I don't really get your point. By members I don't know if you're referring to 'normal' members or Server Administrators aswell, but everyone's opinions and requests counts, and I'm sure if we (we as in the community) want to change something, we can. For instance, if I'm out a Summer evening with a couple of friends and they all want to go swimming and I don't, we'll probably end up going swimming. However, if two people wants to go swimming, we won't go. That's how things work here aswell.

To the Admins:
1. Some of you are really dedicated, thumbs up for that.
2. But most of you come maybe one time in a month online, post something in an application without even knowing this person. (?!)
3. The way you handle your job both in the community and on the servers is not how an admin SHOULD react. (Over-reaction, Immaturity, Power-abuse)

You don't have to know the person to comment on his application, if that's how we should recruit new admins then why would be even have an application section? Basically what you're saying is "You have to get to know the person in order to make your decision" - False. Let's say you own a big company and someone applies for a job, do you honestly go out to dinner with every person and discuss his or her interests and see how he is as a person? No, an interview and a resumé is what you base your decision off of. It's just how things are, I see no reason to complicate that.

To Doggie:
Let me be clear here, once i had big respect of you, but after your following actions, it faded totally:
1. You don't even give a sh*t about your servers and the community.
Your longer absent than any owner of a server i know. You rarely listen to your admins. You make decisions on people you don't even know (or ever watched playing?).
2. I know you are a busy guy, you mentioned that more then often so: if you are so busy then quit the servers... (rats is empty either way)
3. But i don't really believe you, that you are 'busy' my best friend owns a server, has a full-time-job and still has the time to look at least for 5 minutes per day into his community. Also has enough time to meet friends and have fun.

I feel that I have to defend Doggie on some of the points here. While he may not have been the best admin over the last year, this is still harsch.
For starters, not "giving a sh*t" is not the same as having PRIORITIES. He cares for the community but has chosen to put his real life ahead of the community, this is something that I would do, and something that you probably would do aswell. He's absent and he has explained his reasons, end of. Just because one doesn't have the time to take care of something it doesn't mean that they have to completely give up on it.
Now, let's discuss that friend of yours who has a server. He might have a full time job but I take it he doesn't make 10,000$ a month, now does he?

If I remember correctly Doggie was (is?) applying to Cambridge University, and to get in a LOT of work has to be done. And that's an understatement.

You're really not in a position to talk of lost respect as I lost all for you when you started spamming the forums because Doggie did not delete your account, if that was you.

That is all.
- KickFoot

[henk]

I saw this when Nebulez reacted to it and to join kickfoots opinion I think this really is an unnecessary kick
to Doggie...
You can say a lot of things about doggie but that he doesn't give a sh*t thats really bullsh*t.
He always help's and comes into action when things aren't going as planned or there is trouble between
two admins or something like that even when he has his busy schedule.
To name one example I was talking to him the day before yesterday and even though he was in class he managed
to make some time to hear me out...

@Whiskey and @Reaper
Im on this community for like 2 years now? i think that's long enough to quote it with reason.
And to make that clear again: Jackless = Anterro = Scoarden

Again yours sincerely ,
Surranden, Anterro, Scoarden, Jackless

I've been here for over 2 years and in that time while doggie had more and more stuff to do I in fact blame others
that the server and the website hasn't been that good as it was.
I am putting the blame on myself for not being as active as i should be and others need to look at their selves before
jumping on someone who has a way busier schedule than me and still manages to talk to everyone, to help everyone, and run a server!

I get the criticism on other facts like admins picking other admins without meeting them but as kickfoot already explained the basics of that….

And as last Neb…. Dude this really is an unnecessary reaction… I really liked you and shared some of the ideas you had but the fact that you can’t look further then your own nose to look at how busy he is… and instead of stepping up and help him more you leave… but that’s not the end of the story no your posting comments kicking doggie down…

These are my thoughts on this absurd posts.

Greetz.

[Reaper]

i couldn't have said it better both kickfoot and henk. big ups!

[NickCPC]

I think it's pretty simple - if you don't like it, don't stay. Whinging and personal attacks make you look childish, especially when you haven't really come up with any solutions, only complaining about what you perceive to be problems.

Frankly reading the OP's comments are winding me up. I don't post a lot any more, but I read basically every post in every thread, and when I do comment on an application, I do so having done my homework. You might not think all of us admins are active, but some of us play under different names and at different times to you. Doesn't mean we don't care and frankly making sweeping generalisations on how admins behave based on a couple of threads, where chances are you weren't even online at the time, means you're burning your bridges. Not that you care anyway, since you're making an attack on the community and even worse, a personal attack on the owner.

You probably are also still at school, where you finish at 3PM and have 8 or so hours after school to do what you want. Some of us have been to university and graduated and work full time - I get up at 5.45AM every day to go to work, commute for >4 hours to London and back, and don't get back home until 8PM or later. From what I know about Doggie, he's probably putting in similar hours to concentrate on real life challenges such as Cambridge. If you can't understand that he's busy, then you shouldn't be commenting. In fact, none of us knows exactly how busy he is, so none of us has a right to criticise him.

If you feel that passionately about hating on Dream Evil, set up your own community. It's bloody hard work, earning enough money to keep it going, investing time to bring some decent people together, getting a server set up and busy, and sorting out a load of technical and community problems. I think you really need to get some perspective and manners. Picking on people will only make them turn on you, and you WILL regret it one day.

I guess bye to you too N3b, thanks for your contributions as you have been a really good member and what I've seen, a decent admin too. I think it is a shame you're saying goodbye by insulting the guy who gave you a position here, but if that's how you want to end your time here and how you want us to remember you, that's your choice. Good luck in the future.

[Whiskey]

I know you have scoarden, but it looks like you missed D-E? It gotta be a reason you came back with another acc.

[seke3]

agreed to henk kickfoot and nickcpc, i couldn't have said it better! i hope you know doggie, that you've got our support!

[Doggie52]

Let me start off by making myself incredibly clear, Jackless: you have no right, whatsoever, to come here and criticize the way other members behave.

Your criticism against our members
You have no right to say that they join simply to become administrators, and, by the way, what's wrong with that? Those that purely join to become administrators and don't care about the community never become administrators anyway. Those that do stay and that are fit for the job become administrators. That's the way it is, and that is the way it is going to stay. Whether you like it or not.
Criticizing me is one thing, I can handle that and we can discuss it. But you have no right to insult an entire community like that. I am not going to tolerate that, these people have done better than to deserve what you are throwing at them.

Your criticism against our administrators
The way you criticize administrators makes it very clear you have failed to see the philosophy behind being an administrator here. If you go through the tough work of writing a good application, becoming part of the community and gaining the trust of our members and me -- only then do you deserve the administrator spot. Once you become administrator, nothing much actually changes -- you have the ability to take care of our servers, but in the end we are all friends here and we are all in the same boat.
I can not, and will not, force my administrators to be active in order to keep their spot. I can not do this for many reasons, one being that I would need to demand activity from myself too. I would never push my administrators to do something that I wouldn't do myself. Never. Ever. Whether you like it or not.

The philosophy behind the administrator position
Being an administrator here is not supposed to be a "job" with duties, schedules and tasks to complete. We are all friends, we play when we have time and when we feel like it. Some administrators are nice enough to stay on the Steam group and be available for players to contact -- I am very thankful for that, but I do not demand it. The reason a player is an administrator is because he has gained the trust of me and the community (and because he or she is a nice guy/girl), not because I have "assigned" him/her to do a job for me.
This is the way I run this community, and this is the way I will be running this community in the future too. Whether you like it or not.

Your criticism against me
As for what you write about me, you have no right to insult me. Criticism is OK, but insults are not. Not against me or anyone else. Your idea of quitting the servers just because they are empty is incredibly ignorant -- imagine if I had thought so before? Then there wouldn't be a Dream-Evil here at all. We've been through worse times, the servers have been empty, members have left and new members have joined. If I had given up then, there would be nothing left of the community. You've been here quite a short time compared to a large number of members, in fact, and I think you need to realize this.
Also, you know nothing more about my life than I've told you. There is no point in not believing that I am as busy as I say, and quoting some other random person whom you might know. That is completely pointless, because I obviously am not that person -- we live two different lives. You're acting incredibly ignorant by claiming the things you do.

As for you, N3b...
... I don't agree with a word you're saying. And so what, if new members are spamming to get their post count up? Who cares? Only those who deserve it actually get to become an administrator -- I'm really saddened to see that you still don't trust me after all these years. Don't you think I've done a good job selecting administrators before? Do you really think I am blinded by people's post counts? Do you think you could have done a better job choosing administrators? Do you remember who chose you? Who trusted you? Do you remember that? That was me, if you've forgotten.

Quite a few things have happened since I wrote that letter, actually: we've had one or two fightnights, there have been serious discussions about adding new maps to the server (I've written long long posts and spent a lot of time testing your maps -- do you remember that?), I've done countless updates to the servers and their mods, I've updated the forum software quite a few times, etc etc. Just because everything doesn't happen in front of your nose doesn't mean nothing happens.

I'm not even going to comment on my care for other's opinions -- I'll let this post speak for itself. I'm more than sad you're leaving, N3b, and I think you could have done it in so many other ways. There's no need to personally insult me like that, is there?



Dream-Evil will persevere -- we're at a low right now but one day we'll be back up where we belong.

[N3bulouz]

And as last Neb…. Dude this really is an unnecessary reaction… I really liked you and shared some of the ideas you had but the fact that you can’t look further then your own nose to look at how busy he is… and instead of stepping up and help him more you leave… but that’s not the end of the story no your posting comments kicking doggie down…

How can you help if you haven't got ANY rights, any leading participation?

As for you, N3b...
... I don't agree with a word you're saying. And so what, if new members are spamming to get their post count up? Who cares? Only those who deserve it actually get to become an administrator -- I'm really saddened to see that you still don't trust me after all these years. Don't you think I've done a good job selecting administrators before? Do you really think I am blinded by people's post counts? Do you think you could have done a better job choosing administrators? Do you remember who chose you? Who trusted you? Do you remember that? That was me, if you've forgotten.

Quite a few things have happened since I wrote that letter, actually: we've had one or two fightnights, there have been serious discussions about adding new maps to the server (I've written long long posts and spent a lot of time testing your maps -- do you remember that?), I've done countless updates to the servers and their mods, I've updated the forum software quite a few times, etc etc. Just because everything doesn't happen in front of your nose doesn't mean nothing happens.

I'm not even going to comment on my care for other's opinions -- I'll let this post speak for itself. I'm more than sad you're leaving, N3b, and I think you could have done it in so many other ways. There's no need to personally insult me like that, is there?

If you promise things will get better, and if you promise to do things, and you don't do em, how can I keep faith? Yes, in the beginning I fully trusted you, and I thought you were an active leader, but I have learned the other side.
For instance, it took a year for you to put new maps on, how is that even possible?! And as I have said before in the other incident, you had to give at least one of the admins more rights, to co-handle the community, since you're not here, like KickFoot or something. You didn't do that.. And more rights for the admins on the forums would have been nice as well, deleting those spam threads.
And at last I don't like the way things are only determined by you most of the times, there is no democracy at all. I'm sorry for swearing but it just pisses me off so much.

Anyway, I wasn't active on Counter-Strike anymore, and this community is already dead, so whatever man.

PS: I don't blame any of my mates here.

[Flubbel]

First of all, everybody is allowed to have his / her own opinion! I respect them all, but I want to tell mine, too. I hope I can make it without insulting or hurting anybody! =)

@ KickFoot

As for what you said about decisions, I don't really get your point. By members I don't know if you're referring to 'normal' members or Server Administrators aswell, but everyone's opinions and requests counts, and I'm sure if we (we as in the community) want to change something, we can. For instance, if I'm out a Summer evening with a couple of friends and they all want to go swimming and I don't, we'll probably end up going swimming. However, if two people wants to go swimming, we won't go. That's how things work here aswell.

Yes, sure. The day all 282 members decide to change the D-E-Logo .. well .. that day Doggie will have problems deciding against us..
I apologise for my irony, but for me its obvious that its not a complete democracy here at the moment. And I have got my reasons for this opinion!

For instance, if I'm out a Summer evening with a couple of friends and they all want to go swimming and I don't, we'll probably end up going swimming. However, if two people wants to go swimming, we won't go. That's how things work here aswell.

Okay, good trial to explain the democracy here.
Now think one of your friends got the only car, and you need this car to go swimming. If he is one of three people that doesnt want to go swimming, will they go?

Let's say you own a big company and someone applies for a job, do you honestly go out to dinner with every person and discuss his or her interests and see how he is as a person? No, an interview and a resumé is what you base your decision off of. It's just how things are, I see no reason to complicate that.

I like your comparisons =D
Okay, lets go further. These days the owner would go to Facebook, ask people who knows the applicant or try to find as much about the applicant as possible. So, now, the owner only finds positive arguments to employ the applicant - he would employ him, wouldnt he?
Lets compare this with us, the members, which post their opinion under the application.
What went wrong if all sources, the companys owner found, were positive, but he doesnt employ the applicant? His gut feeling? Okay, but than this is not a democracy!

@ NickCPC

Whinging and personal attacks make you look childish, especially when you haven't really come up with any solutions, only complaining about what you perceive to be problems.

Solutions arent needed.

• Half of his text is only like an "information".
  Part is criticism to admins. Solutions of being inactive? I dont think solutions must be named there..

The last part, well:

• Solution for the criticism of "You rarely listen to your admins" - not needed, because logical..
  Solutions for "Decisions on people.." - I think the solution is the same as above..
  Solution for Doggies absence? Well, we have talked about it already. He, btw., brought up a solution (Yes, I dont like his solution, too =D)

In fact, none of us knows exactly how busy he is, so none of us has a right to criticise him.

I think everybody has the right to criticise everyone, as long as the critcism is not pure invention. Even when the criticism is exxagerated.. Criticism is important in life! Criticise me, I would appreciate it.. =)


@ Doggie

Your criticism against our members

Those that purely join to become administrators and don't care about the community never become administrators anyway.

Sorry Doggie, but this is wrong. If you are right with your statement - how can there be admins, which have joined the community in 2010, and now, around two years later, they have not even 20 posts? I really cant imagine any person that cares about the community while being "active" like "this". A post per month .. or is it more like 20 posts in a week until they became admin?
"Most active forum: Accepted" --> Amazing, isnt it? This can not be called interest in the community, or am I wrong?

Yes, players only join to become admin, thats (for me) obvious. I dont criticize this behaviour, but if new applicants dont get accepted, because "we have enough admins", which became the admin job some years ago .. thats unbelievable! This behaviour was, at least once, successful - without being active. And there are admins which became the job once and now arent active anymore, arent there?? I know its right and you know it too!

I think Jackless has maybe exaggerated at describing the situation - anyway - often exaggerating is the best way to get the wanted feedback, or any reaction. Saying "Maybe, perhaps there are some small problems" wont bring as much reaction..

Your criticism against our administrators

I think everything has been said above.

The philosophy behind the administrator position

Another reason a player is an administrator is because the server was in need of admins. So, if the server is in need of admins, its not important who your are, how you behave or if you stay active after being accepted. Hmm, I guess thats not what you wanted to hear? Irony pure..
The server was in need of admins when you said "we have enough". Im really sorry about saying this, but if you cant be sure if the server is in need of admins or not - ask active admins.

Your criticism against me

First, youre right, Doggie, at least for important parts.
And I know, youre a person that wants to control everything. But for God's sake! Youve seen that it doesnt work, so why dont you try giving some responsibillity to members you trust? Ive offered you my help several times already, if you dont trust me - thats okay, your personal view - but if you dont trust any member by not-ordinary admin work (like in the forums) you should maybe change your attitude..

I think N3b has said enough about it

How can you help if you haven't got ANY rights, any leading participation?

So N3bulouz and me - we have got the same problem with your attitude. Its okay, your life comes first, but you see what happens when less time is combined with distrust. To list reasons isnt important for me, I know you have them, but if there are solutions for these problems - why arent these problems solved yet?

As for you, N3b...

Its for N3b, I know, I will comment on it anyway, because I agree with N3b.

Trust you? I, personally, completely did, but I will not start counting neglected promises you gave me.. And exactly the same problem seems to upset N3b!
Quite a few things have happened.. Sounds nice, but if there are other problems, whats about solving them first? Like verifying the promises you gave N3b?

And at last I don't like the way things are only determined by you most of the times, there is no democracy at all.

N3b is like my stooge today =)
Ive got the question to his statement: Should this community be a democracy? Or is it more like a president that got his advisers (which are only consulted when the president isnt sure about his opinion) ?
Either were a team, "friends" as you say, that means we decide together or were just employees, that follow rules and decisions of our boss.

PS: I dont want to say you havent got trust in us. It just feels like distrust. And I have got experiences with you in the past that has shown me your distrust (at least minimal).


You can not do everything, you can not know everything. As a team we can make it, but team means democracy. And democracy cant be built out of mutual distrust!

Apologise my bad english and the mistakes - you can keep them =P Its late, Im tired and this text became terrifying long.. =0

Good Night! =)